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DC Fire & EMS Department report on vacant house fire that injured five firefighters. Read entire report.

Click here to download the entire report

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Click here for fireground audio from this fire

Click here for previous coverage of story

Last week the DC Fire & EMS Department released its internal report into the April 8, 2011 fire at 811 48th Place, NE that injured five firefighters. Earlier this week we pointed you to a Washington Times article about the fire. Now the entire report is available for downloading (note that it is a fairly large file).

This is the fire that critically burned Firefighter Chuck Ryan who was with Rescue Squad 3. Firefighter Ryan is now back on the job in DC.

You may note another familiar name in the previous coverage of this fire. Robert Alvarado was a lieutenant at the time he was burned. Alvarado has since been demoted to sergeant following his public challenge of Chief Kenneth Ellerbe’s uniform policy (click here).

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Comments - Add Yours

  • We’re Screwed

    Wow, can’t believe DC local signed off on this report.

  • Commenter

    It’s apparent that DCFEMS arrives quickly with a large number of firefighters. It’s also apparent that changing behaviors within the department is going to take a lot more than FEMS Chief Ellerbe has to offer.

    DC arrives quickly and everybody runs in. That’s apparent to those who know DCFEMS operations and is supported by this report. Both RS3 and T13 were inside waiting for water.

    NO 360 size up by the first unit.
    NO establishing command by the first unit.
    NO “it’s the first line, stupid” policy. Engine companies compete with each other to get a line in service, rather than cooperate with each other to ensure that the first line is effective.
    NO transitional attack, no “Reset” stream, no “holding” stream, no apparent knowledge of fire behavior or state of the art tactics.
    NO PPV, NO PPA.

    It’s apparent that everybody running in and racing to get a line in service works great for the Junior Varsity team on J.V. fires. However, at Varsity – level fires — fires DC doesn’t get very often because of their super-fast response time — these tactics fail. Unfortunately, because they work so well at the J.V. fires, the FEMS firefighters think that they are 10 feet tall and bulletproof, and act accordingly.

    The best chance at survival for victims trapped in a fire is achieved with fast water on the fire — even if that water comes through a window from the outside.

    0039:41 (0000s ET) Dispatch
    0041:11 (0090s ET) E30 gives size up in rear
    0042:08 (0147s ET) E27 gives size up in front on wrong channel
    0052:13 (0752s ET) RS3 MAYDAY on wrong channel

    The MAYDAY occurred more than 10 minutes after the units arrived on the scene, front and rear. It doesn’t take more than a minute to pull a preconnected handline to the back yard and “Reset” the fire and “Kill the Flashover”. E30 had good positioning. Hitting it from outside HAS BEEN PROVEN NOT TO PUSH FIRE. Hitting it from outside does not make a survivable room unsurvivable. Hitting it from outside virtually stops the production of fire gasses that are the cause of death in the vast majority of civilian fire deaths. Hitting it from outside does not preclude, and in fact depends on, immediately shifting to an offensive AGGRESSIVE interior attack. Hitting it from outside prevents the flashovers and rapid fire growths that are responsible for so many fireground LODDs each year. Hitting it from outside is MUCH faster than advancing it from the inside – at least at complex fires like this one. Not hitting it from outside, that is, advancing a line through the building, requires opening doors and ventilating the fire — causing the fire to grow and spread, in this case, for 10 minutes.

    A change in tactics, coupled with DC’s incredible response speed, and DC could have a 0 fire death year.

    But not with the FEMS department as it is now, and not with Ken Ellerbe at the helm.

    • Capt Dick

      Couldn’t have said it better. The fact that most DCFEMS personnel are willing to accept sending folks to the burn unit and in some cases wear it like a badge of courage is a problem as well. Any injury on the fireground should scrutinized to the fullest to identify exactly what went wrong . It’s almost always the result of poor decisions, poor strategy and tactics, and sometimes just plain old cro magnon macho ism . This competitive junior volley firefighter mentality sets the modern day fire service back 20 years.

      • Pipeman27

        Your name is fitting, thanks for your insight, I’m sure you’re perfect, d**k

    • backstep lineman

      You don’t even know DC SOG’s so why do you open your mouth go back to your KIC tactic group.

      • Capt Dick

        Pipe man, it’s not perfect … It bends to the left a little . Backstep, I may not know the SOGs but I know common sense.

    • DCFDmember

      I disagree with many of the proposed tactics you mention, though there is no denying that a lot of mistakes were made at this incident. It’s always embarrassing when that happens to your department, but it would be irresponsible to hide from them and pretend they didn’t happen.

      The DCFD has very sound SOPs and operational practices. Unfortunately, many of those SOPs and regular practices were not followed on this incident. If those procedures/practices were followed and performed correctly, there is a good chance the bad outcome to this incident could have been avoided (or at the very least much lessened).

      Usually our firegrounds are very efficient and effective due to everyone doing their job the way it should be done, and there is a good lessen for everyone from this incident that you cannot become complacent in following the SOPs and regular operational practices as they are there for a very good purpose.

      • Commenter

        “The DCFD has very sound SOPs and operational practices. Unfortunately, many of those SOPs and regular practices were not followed on this incident.”

        If the SOPs aren’t regularly followed, they are impractical. However, the FEMS tactics are unsound in the face of modern practices:

        NO 360 size up.
        NO On-Scene formal establishment of command until the arrival of a chief officer (BC1 established command at 0055, some 14 minutes after the arrival of the first engine, E30, at 0041)
        NO plan or announcement of plan (E30 mentions that E27 is making an interior attack, but that is all)
        NO establishment of a RIG until the arrival of the 5th due engine

        An insistance on attacking a fire via the interior vs. darkening the fire from the exterior, increased the ventilation and thus the intensity of the fire. The difficult layout of the building (hey – some buildings are difficult) delayed the application of water some 10 minutes after arrival. The fire could have been knocked down, from the exterior, shortly after the arrival of E30, without additional danger to any potential occupants. The attack could then have been shifted to an interior operation.

        • DCFDmember

          Our SOPs are regularly followed, this was one instance where they weren’t. Though, that is not the norm.

          We have units go to both sides of the building and give size ups, which does the same as a 360.

          The BC was in charge formally from the start. The declaration of being in command is just a formality which notified fire communications to change the chief’s status in the CAD.

          DC uses the 5th due engine on all boxes as the initial RIT. This engine is sent on the initial box assignment. That is a fine as it allows the other 4 engines on the initial assignment to perform tasks which will make the fire ground safer along with mitigate the incident. With DC being able to get the full initial assignment on scene in a short time, it is fine having the 5th due engine be the initial RIT. Other departments may do that differently due to how quickly they can have enough resources arrive on the scene.

          • Anonymous

            You Monday morning lawn jockeys kill me! Couldn’t, and wouldn’t put out a fire in a phone booth. But come here and say what you would do from in front of you’re computer screen! The additions that were added to this house were beyond messed up, quick thinking, and recognition is the reason why everyone is alive ! Have fun at your Disney world fire company where nothing goes wrong, and you stick your ppv fan in the door before you have the fore knocked. We don’t subscribe to that bull sh@t here!! Or in fact come on up and show us how JV we are!! You wouldn’t last 12 hours in this city before someone ran you over, and put you in a closet!!

          • Commenter

            Does your first due company wait for the second due company to give the report in the rear before they make entry? If not, you can’t count it as a 360.

            Does your first due officer size up the building from all 4 sides, and then decide a course of action, or is he busy pulling hose because he automatically defaults to 1 1/2″ through the front door, and doesn’t want to get beaten by the 3rd due company?

            The man on the ground has a better view of operations. You shouldn’t let someone command a fire ground from afar — it’s a lesson we’ve learned over and over again in the military. If you’re going to have a remote IC, why not put your best guy in a command center with a support team & good technology, rather than in the front of a SUV running the streets.

            The other 4 engines making the fire ground safer, hah! In this case: 1st due, not putting water on the fire. 2nd due, making the fireground safer by watching the fire they can hit get bigger while sitting in exposure building. 3rd due, trying to get a 400′ line extended, and FAILING, while no doubt delaying giving the first due engine a water supply. 4th due, watching and offering to do the right thing, but being denied. All these on scene in about 5 minutes. ‘Making the fireground safer’.

  • Pipeman27

    Can’t wait to see how LRB addresses all the recommendations from the report.

  • Half LT

    Dave,
    Can the report be posted somewhere other than “dropbox.com” – that site is blacklisted by some government networks..

    • dave statter

      Right now, because it is so large I do not have that capability. You mean STATter911.com isn’t blacklisted? That’s the one they should ban.

      Statter

      • CHAOS

        I’ve forwarded the picture of your son wearing the DCFD shirt to the proper authorities. Expect that blacklisting any day now, since they obviously won’t be busy trying to properly run a large metropolitan FD.

  • FOBS

    I read the report last night…..geeze what a cluster feck.

    I am surprised more firefighters weren’t burned; I’m more surprised there were no deaths.

    DCFD needs to go back to the basics before tragedy strikes.

    This was a very basic structure fire handled very poorly full of bad decisions, a total lack of leadership and coordination and piss poor firefighting skills.

    Wow.

    • DCFDmember

      “DCFD needs to go back to the basics before tragedy strikes.”

      The DCFD had an excellent back to basics training program which was ended when LRB was hired. He gutted the training academy of most of it’s staff which was responsible for doing that training. That group of instructors who were doing the back to basics training were very motivated and dedicated to that training and LRB ruined a very good thing which they had been doing.

    • DCFD

      YOu’re wrong fobs, that house was cut up and had work done to it so many times that it obviously caused a huge problem. It could have happened to any of us on any fire. PLease expand upon your comments on bad decisions, lack of leadership and piss poor ff skills. Would be interesting to see how you would have handled this…

  • Tipman49

    Too many Monday morning quarterbacks glad I don’t have to crawl hallways with you guys

    • Pipeman27

      Good we don’t want you in our hallways

  • Nick

    I have a question for any DCFD brothers, is it standard procedure to only pull lines off your rig? Why would E10 not stretch a line from E27?

    Also, how is the decision to lay single or dual 3″ supply lines made?

    • Greg

      As far pulling lines from your rig, its simple, its your crew, your line, your pump operator, you are on a hydrant etc. It evolved with the disbanding of the two piece engine company. As with any department some companies are on the fireground are proficient and some not so much, henceforth try to take care yourself and dont rely on someone else’s pump operator, ie a lever puller, or a another companies hose load. As far as the lay out, responsibilty lies with the OIC but OICS will sometimes rely on the wagon driver who is the informal leader of the company

  • Ol Skool 86

    Its a sign of a lazy engine company…It is taught in rookie school to..if at all possible,pull your own line! Don’t depend on another engine( which could be a piece of crap reserve) or another wagon driver to give you water( could be a rookie driver) . I have put many fires out with a 600 ft inch and a half. If you pull a line off the 1st due,they will not charge it until their first line has water and their 3 inch supply in charged. Also in 1997 , E10 was operating on a serious fire due fire and the second line was pulled off E10 wagon when the wagon shut down. A Flashover happened and both companies were trapped inside. If the 3rd due engine would of pulled their own line,things would of been different.Hope that clears that up. Yes, we Dcfd guys do need to slow down a bit. A famous news anchor once told me in 1996 that they don’t ever have big fires on news in dc cause we are so fast at showing up and executing. But that has changed over the last few years due to mass retirements of a lot of legends on this job. We have lost tons of experience…

    Rookies can’t even get proper training under their OIC and crew due to constant details all over the city. In the past rookies stayed in house for 90 days minimum. Now it’s a numbers game, a rookies second day on the job can be sent across town detailed. This practice must stop. Dfc and bfc are so scared to make desicions the men are suffering. Tons of guys are barely trained in the field anymore due to this.

    Guys are trying to hold on to the last bit of pride this department stands on….being aggressive,that to will change probably.We are not an “exterior based truck service” . You have great trucks,good trucks,trucks,then sorry ass trucks! It all depends on the crew and the truck co. Should it be this way,NO!
    No matter what leaders say, we have had NO Live,hands on fire training in a year and a half. This is sad. We have had some pretty close calls too and the leaders of this dept. chose not to have critiques anymore.This baffles me as well.Why is that?

    Alot is wrong right now I just hope no one else gets hurt while the pencil pushers count numbers . To the men of dcfd, let’s slow down, keep your heads up and know that one day it will get better.

    • Commenter

      The proof is in the pudding.

      Clearly trying to extend an already long handline is riskier than using the engine at the building’s second line.

      Perhaps, instead of trying to beat each other with your own handlines, you should cooperate in getting the first line in service properly and THEN go back and stretch a second line. That’s how professional departments do it. That’s how more experienced departments like FDNY do it.

      • DCFD

        Hey Fire of Science guy, you’re such a genius! The volunteers were done away with in NY in 1865 and 1871 in DC, both respectively becoming paid departments at that time. So you are right about FDNY being more experienced by 6 years than us amateurs in DC. That explains everything. Thanks

  • FOBS

    DCFD,

    I think the report and radio traffic transcript speak volumes about what went wrong on that particular incident.

    If the current chief “gutted” the training bureau, it is, in my opinion, up to individual engine and ladder companies to train on the basics every shift.

    First-in drills really make a difference.

    • Pipeman27

      There is no time to drill anymore. Busy companies, which is pretty much every company except for upper NW, are running all over the city on a daily basis. B.S. EMS runs, bells, MVAs, food, autos, occasional working fires, 20+ calls every shift. There is almost zero crew integrity with all the ambo and medic details. Everyone is exhausted, no leave is available, unless you go off on sick leave or POD, then your labelled as a scumbag. Doom and gloom around here all the time. It would be nice to have chiefs that stood up for the men but I guess those days are over. I’ll just keep paying my union dues and come to work and be abused by the dept and the city. Sorry to vent.

  • backstep lineman

    It would be awesome if we had time to train in house but due to the call volume and depletion of resources these days engines are running 25+ calls a tour and running straight across the city where the ambulance could have arrived and taken the pt to the hospital and given their report by the time the apparatus arrives. Plus you have details or house clean up and try to fit in some meals if you can. Its not all the glory of a suburban fire dept. We are running guys ragged.

  • FOBS

    backstep,

    I was an engineer on a medic engine for many years, we ran approx. 5000 call per year and found time to drill.

    A typical 48 hour shift was very busy, but we (as an engine company) tried to find the time for training as well as station duties and chow.

    Our training bureau conducted quarterly, mandatory drills for each battalion; the medic engines were expected to attend and answer calls for service during said drills.

    Somehow we made it work, it was not easy, but it paid off in a low incidence of injuries to firefighters.

    We had our share of screw ups and made our share of mistakes, but we trained as we fought fire, answered calls for medical aid and everything else we got involved in on a day to day basis.

    It seems to me DCFD can do better despite their chief, I cannot believe this is typical of the department.

    Keep in mind, I am obviously on the outside looking in from 3000 miles away, and retired from a department that does things in a whole ‘nother way; we too, have a serious lack of staffing: think 2 person engines and a 3 person ladder responding to all manner of fires, medical aids, vehicle accidents, haz-mats, and wildland fires.

    Every department is different, I just feel that these conversations regarding the posted videos (good or bad) should serve to plant ideas for improvement.

    I have made comments about things I’ve seen and stand by my opinions; I comment from my experience and training only.

    • Brooks

      FOBS

      I enjoy input from my brothers across the country and around the world. I believe there’s much we can learn from the left coast. However, I’ve run into this attitude from several in our own department — that it’s our fault that we don’t get enough training in.

      I will start by pointing out that there’s a big difference between 4800 runs and 5200 runs a year, at least in the DCFD. I’m not sure why, but it seems that somewhere around 4500 you go from being occasionally able to string together two hours of drill time to being almost never able to string together two hours of drill time.

      The straight numbers also don’t tell the whole story. There’s a big difference between running 4500 mostly EMS runs on a Paramedic Engine in a functional department, where the transport unit usually has a paramedic, and 4500 such runs in DC, where there are virtually no paramedic transports, and each patient must be fully assessed by the ALS engine crew. On my 5200 run ALS engine, we may spend about 4 hours, broken up, in quarters between 0700 and 2300. DC Traffic plays a role as well.

      Those four hours are claimed by payroll and administrative duties, meals, and mandatory online training (did you read your ethics pledge?).

      We also have inconsistent staffing: If I were to train every member of my engine company on a particular evolution, it would take at least 4 tours. I don’t have control of my personnel, and they are often detailed to other units. Once I got all 4 trained, I could still expect to have a strange detail man assigned to me a couple times a month, as TeleStaff may have decided that it’s time to send a couple of my guys on medic unit details to another station.

      Finally, there’s a big difference between a busy day in 82F low humidity SoCal weather and 92F high humidity Washington DC weather, especially when that’s coupled with a martinet fire administrator who is more focused on checking sock lengths and enforcing his ‘invasion of Poland’ heavy summer uniform rules than on ensuring that the apparatus functions, much less making sure that the apparatus or even stations have functioning air conditioning.

      So, I’ll tell you the same thing I tell those guys who claim they got all their training in DC ‘back in the day’….the conditions are different. They may appear similar, they are not.

    • Anonymous

      FOBS and all you other know it all’s . Every report that has ever come out after a LODD or Close Call is full of things that went wrong and could have been done better. All you have to do is watch the videos on this site. DCFD is a aggressive Interior Dept. just like most City Departments. Most of whats on here is such BS. We don’t do 360′s because we have units assigned to the rear. We do train at the Company level daily etc etc etc. People love to take their shots at us every chance but the truth is most would love to be in ours or any big city dept. You think you have all your answers with your big ideas like Air Trac Management and knock it down from the outside. I have worked in a dept. like yours and i’ll take our way of doing bussiness any day. We are not Cowboys and there is a method to our Strategy and Tactics. So either man up say where you are from and prove you have a better Operation or STFU!

      • FOBS

        Easy anon, yer gonna blow a gasket!

        I worked 34 years for Cal Fire, retiring as a captain.

        We are an all risk department: check this video on You Tube:

        I realize (as mentioned before ) that different departments do things differently and I am stating my opinion on what I read in the report.

        As a captain, I have been the IC on one or two fires, and recognize a cluster when I see it.

        Have I had calls go bad? Most certainly! Did they go as bad as the fire that got those firefighters burned? Most definitely not.

        Was I better than the DCFD IC on the fire in question? Don’t know, can’t say wasn’t there. Would I have done things differently? You betcha’!

        So, anon, telling me to STFU is unprofessional and helps nothing.

        Again, I am posting opinions and observations and stand by them.

        By the way, I did not accuse DCFD of being cowboys, everyone knows you only find cowboys west of the Mississippi! ;)

        • Pipeman27

          You know whats unprofessional, taking shots at your so called brothers! It sucks that this fire went bad and chuckie and the fellas got burned, but that’s the way firefighting goes. I think that sometimes we forget that once we put our gear on we are entering a world that we don’t control. It’s printed right in the tag inside your coat, it’s an ultra hazardous environment, you can and sometimes get hurt, deal with it.

  • Anonymous

    Hey don’t forget the filling of swimming pools to the list……………….. :)

  • AbsoluteReality

    How sad…

    Documentation PROVING how messed-up these
    egomaniacs operate, yet they continue to rant…

    “ME BIG CITY FIREMAN” (pounding on chest)

    “OUR Tradition allows us to hurt, burn and maim with best of them.!!”

    “Should see how grandiose our LODD funerals are!!”

  • Grateful forever.

    So there is not a second left to train we get that. There is no crew integrity we get that. You can’t trust the first due driver to charge your line, well I don’t get that because the first due officer is not pulling a line off of the third engine when running a reserve. I don’t get that because you have centrifugal pumps, if the pump fails you can “pump through.” But ok maybe I am a stupid sissified monday morning critic who just picked a Friday night to post. Maybe just maybe things have changed and you can’t be the FD you once were. Maybe your fire chief is not the brightest light on the menorah. I believe you. When the people change and the environment changes you MUST also adjust your tactics. If you can’t go fast like you used to, slow down. 12 seconds of exterior flow on that fire and you have nothing to talk about. And the best part is that you don’t need 4 hours to train on that.

  • Titanic

    The SOP for commenters: Take a video, an article about a department, or a report about a fire where some guys got burned and make gross generalizations about how the department operates. Never mind that these sources are usually filtered through the perception of a journalist or a citizen with a camera phone. 
        “AbsoluteReality” – One incident where mistakes were made does not define the way a department operates just like a picture of you tripping is not “proving” that you are unable to walk. 
       It is not realistic to believe that one incident going bad (out of thousands a year that go right) is proof that SOG’s need to be rewritten. Making policy changes based on knee-jerk reactions is short-sided. 
       Talking about this incident specifically, no matter how good your SOG’s are, you cannot plan for every situation. As anyone who has been to the scene or read the report knows, the shoddy “construction” of this place was the largest contributing factor to these guys getting  burned. 
        Should there be a push to learn your area better so everyone knows about these situations before they’re on fire? Absolutely, but a city is an ever changing landscape. No matter how well you know your area, there will ALWAYS be some new changes that you haven’t seen yet. 
       Even with all the training in the world mistakes will be made. Even with an extensive knowledge of your response area you will encounter unforeseen challenges. So what can we do? Follow our guidelines and adapt to each incident. 
       Even when we do everything perfectly, people are still going to get hurt. That’s something we have to accept with this job. 

  • DaFireman1598

    Speaking to all these guys saying that they would flow a line from outside into a structure. Whatever happened to RECEO, or are you not familiar with that acronym? R-rescue, E-exposure, C-confine, E-extinguish, O-overhaul…in that order. Having not checked the structure for victims before flowing a line.

    • Commenter

      Get with the times. The best way to Rescue someone is to confine the fire. The fastest way to confine the fire is through a window. Water on the fire through a window, or from a sprinkler stops the fire from growing and minimizes deadly fire gases.

      Conversely, forcing entry from the front and advancing a hoseline from the front creates a vent path that opens the throttle on the fire, intensifies heat and fire gas production, and allows for the spread of fire. In this particular case, advancing the hoseline from the front put them in the wrong position and kept the first line from getting to the fire.

      Read that again. Then go read the UL, NIST, FDNY studies. Opening doors to attack spreads the fire. Putting water on the fire from Side D would not. Any viable victims, in the fire area, or in the rest of the building would have been killed by the actions of bringing the line in from the front, especially since the first line didn’t make the fire. Any viable victims in the front, uninvolved section, would have had their best chance if E30 had shown up in the rear and put water on the fire ASAP.

  • hydro engineer

    Ok the call came out at 0039hrs. Engine 30 arrived at 0041:11 and Engine 27 arrived at 0042:08. Engine 27 gave layout and size up and the BC1 acknowledged it on TAC-03 at 0042:37. From the time E-27 gets off the Wagon, pulls a line and forces the front door, Communications makes one transmission stating units should be on 0A3 at 0042:42. Now if E-27 gave his report from the wagon his portable was probable off as to not get all the feedback so he did not hear that and BC1 copied his transmission on 03. Then BC1 personally gets a transmission from OUC to switch to TAC 0A3 at 0043:03. BC1 makes its first transmission on TAC 0A3 at 0043:13. There were 104 radio transmissions on the TAC 0A3 from 0041:11 till 0057:59, that’s about once every 9 seconds and that’s including when you get honked out or length of message, and 37 of them were from BC1. The roof collapse was at 0053:46, 11 minutes into the operation. At 0056:51 BC1 asked E-27 if they are on 03… 15mins into incident.
    All of this happened in 11 minutes from arriving on the scene to the Roof collapse. With 80 radio transmissions, that’s about one every 4-5 second’s with the 21 sec open mike delay and length of transmission. A lot was going on and you know units were talking (yelling) inside. They did a great job getting the members out to safety!!
    Most of our problems come from poor radio control, i.e.: 1st; when you call the BFC or other units and you are not honked out… continue talking. Do not wait for them to acknowledge. 2nd; Why do we have to always tell the truck companies “you are vent and you have Truck 00 with you” we only have 2 trucks on a box and they know their roles. And Rescue your Rescue… really? 3rd; if a company lay’s out and the unit picking up the line copies it then we do not need to repeat that information. 4th; Repeating every detail on a working fire is ridiculous, it takes up radio time, and units cannot report information timely by having to wait. 5th; Do we have to read our S.O.G.’s over the TAC channel on every box? If we need to tell each company what to do next on a call then they do need to be retrained.

    Not every fire will go the same so you must know how to deviate from S.O.G.’s. We do not have a S.O.G.’s for a roof falling on you.

    DCFD RULES!!!

  • Anonymous

    How many fireman does FDNY lose a year? It’s a hazardous job, and everything doesn’t always go by your holy graile!! We don’t spray water through windows to darken it down and then go in, we don’t subscribe to your pu@@y tactics. We do it our way!! The way we have been doing it for over 100 years!! Don’t like our tactics, or the way we operate!! I could care less!! You have a choice where you decide to work, and this isn’t the place for you!!! Now go set your tower ladder up and spray foam into the kitchen fire because your too scared to man up and go in!! We will take care of our own as we always do!!! When you show me that you can throw a book into a second floor, and it puts a fire out. Then you will have my attention, until then don’t worry about how we do things here!!

    • Pipeman27

      Amen brother!

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