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Check this out. 6000 feet sure is a lot of LDH to pick up.

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No fire here. Just a lot of hose. The tags indicate this is the Rincon Fire Department in Georgia (Effingham County). This took place along Horsepen Road.

Here’s the description with the video:

Extending our Hydrants by a mile. We are able to achieve a constant flow of 950 gpms in 11 minutes with a total of three personnel.
-6,000 All American Hose, LDH HFX, 5″
-35 MPH Deploy
-ISO Drill
-Maintain 950 GPM w/ 6,000′ of LDH Fire Hose

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Comments - Add Yours

  • FMCH

    Well, it didn’t take that long to lay out all the LDH. Where’s the video of the 2-3 hours it (must/probably) takes to pick that all up? 3 guys……wow…..make 4-5 hours.

  • Legeros

    Great post for KLHs. Keyboard hose layers.

  • BFD

    I would of called out sick

  • Rich

    I just wasted 9 minutes and 6 seconds of my life….Thank god there were high fives though.

  • Craig

    Putting an engine in the middle should help with flow and reduce risk of a break. And calling a 2nd alarm should help with getting it back up……

  • retired chief

    stupidest thing I’ve ever seen

  • John W

    Just set up a drop tank and shuttle with a tanker. Same results with a lot less work. I guess this was a demonstration showing that they could do it with three more than the fact they could flow the water. Just my two cents. I am sure they have their reasons for laying the line.

  • BH

    Pay attention- it was an ISO drill. They were demonstrating what they CAN do, not necessarily what they WILL do. They’re going for a new rating. Sure, an engine in the middle would be nice, but who says you’ll get it in time? Tanker shuttles require more trucks, more personnel, and take longer to establish especially since most of them will be mutual aid. Find me a tanker shuttle that can establish 950gpm a mile away without having a readily available loop in 11 minutes and maintain it indefinitely.

    • Brooks

      Three 4000 gwt Vacuum tankers could maintain 950 gpm with a 12.5 minute cycle time. It would take them 4.7 minutes to drive 1 mile and back. It would take them 2 minutes to fill, 2.3 minutes to dump. That would leave each tanker 3.5 minutes to backup and turn around, and to get out and connect to the suction sleeve at the fill site. It could be done fairly easily. If there was a nice turning loop at each end, and some fire explorer to make the hard sleeve connection, these three tankers could shuttle well over 1250 gpm.

      Also, the 950 gpm could begin as soon as the first tanker arrived, which I assume is 11 minutes faster than it could be done with the relay.

      Finally, those three tankers could shuttle 750 gpm out to 3 miles, 500 gpm out to 5 miles (which is all ISO will give you credit for), and 250 gpm out to 12 miles.

  • North Chief

    ISO makes us do a lot of crazy useless stuff we will never put into use. Think of the equipment list they ask for on a pumper. Its all a paperwork thing. Do the dog and pony show for them,get your rating and go back to normal ops. For a rural area, going from 9 to 8 is a waste of time and money. You have to drop 3 grades to make any impact on residential rates. That requires a large investment in equipment and very solid mutual/automatic aid. The cost of tax increases to lower insurance rates negates alot of the savings.

  • haphazard

    … If they measured the time it took to lay the hose and the time it took to get the water from one end to the other – they should be able to determine when they could have started flowing water into the hose while they were still laying hose. …

  • OldSutterOne

    BH is correct. The video shows what can be done. It is a rare incident that would require this effort. The late Larry Stevens worked with the Oakland and San Fransico FDs to lay LDH accoss the Bay Bridge for an earthquake drill. It worked! While I agree that picking it up will be a nightmare, it takes less staffing to set up, less apparatus, and reduces the possibility of an accident with responding apparatus running between the source and the incident. Water tenders can be dangerous and are often in wrecks. I look foward to other thoughtful replies. By the way one of my old dept.s has an ISO 5 without hydrants. We used both shuttles and hose.

  • RJ(in florida)

    “HEY”…I JUST FOUND AN “O” RING!

  • Melvin Stanbrough
  • Anonymous

    We have done several LDH relays in the area of 6,000′ on fire day. Works fairly easily with some drilling and practice. We don’t have any one rig carrying 6,000′, the standard around us is 1,500′ of 5″ per rig. With that, we get a relay pumper in line after each bed of hose, which helps your flow & pressure numbers. In the non-hydranted areas, a first alarm assignment gave us those 4 engines for the lay without having to wait for extra alarm or special-called rigs. On one particular drill, we ran a ~6,000′ LDH relay against a tanker shuttle covering about the same distance, each supplying one aerial. A huge edge was given to the tanker shuttle since we started with all the tankers and fill engines already on location at staging. Nonetheless, the LDH relay was flowing steady long before the tankers (who knew what they were doing) & gave a better flow. There’s still a place for the tankers (longer distances & as a supplement supply), but at that distance, the LDH relay should work better & faster (again, if everyone knows what they’re doing).

  • EngineBoss

    6000 feet of 5 inch supply line is a pricey investment. Why the need to drive so fast to lay the line? 35 miles per hour? So how many of the couplings are oblonged and road rashed up? I know some of the local departments out here that accidentally dropped their beds going to calls… and the couplings and some of the hose were damaged as a result of it. Doesn’t seem reasonable to abuse the equipment so save a minute or two. Replacing couplings is a pain in the butt and expensive.

    • OldSutterOne

      LDH is an investment. Lets say you pay $10 per foot and add to that $10k for hardware like adaptors, wyes, manifold etc. total investment is 70k. How many 3500 gallon vacuum tankers can you buy for that? Couplings do become damaged. They are made from aluminum, a soft metal, dragging will abrade them, running over them will change their shape. I have not found that speed by itself damaged couplings, in fact if you go too slow the couplings tend to drop hard, rather than laying down more gently at a faster speed. Improperly loaded hose, where the coupling flips up in the air, thats another story. Shuttles and relays are both needed in a rural department’s bag of tricks, but you absolutely need to repeatedly train on the evoluntions.

    • Jay

      No damage to the hose or couplings, and we have a letter from All American Hose to deploy at 35 mph max, we maintain a max of 30 mph.

  • Blue

    ISO & LDH, a useless corporation that spawned the latter.

  • OldCityCaptain

    So here are my 2 cents worth….the average friction loss in 5 inch hose is 6psi per hundred feet…that gives you 6 x 60 = 360psi of friction loss in a 6,000 foot lay. lets add in 25 for what looked like a 5 inch tri-gate…we are now at 385psi. I don’t know of any other appliances they were using so I won’t add anything else. So with the FL=C*GPM²*L , the old calculator and brain came up with a needed pump discharge pressure of around…..433psi! the test pressure and safe operating pressures for 5 inch hose are at 250psi, and 200psi respectively. I understand that in-line pumpers will reduce this but….what have you really accomplished??? by the time this is set up, whatever was burning, will probably not be saved. Exposure protection should be the order of the day.
    Just my ramblings, this was more of a gee whiz event than anything worthwhile.

    • Commenter

      Hope you’re retired.

      It was a relay, something you should be familiar with even if you’re not familiar with LDH. Engine pressure should be around 20 * 6 + some, probably around 150 psi.

      What have you accomplished? You moved almost 1000 gpm of water more than a mile. You’ve extended your ISO rating for your hydranted area to 1 cover properties within one mile of hydrant — which could present significant savings for the ratepayers of the jurisdiction.

      • mark

        Maybe it’s just my reading ability, but the title says 6,000′ of 5″, with 3 people in 11 minutes.

        I see nothing about being a relay.

        I was curious about friction loss as well. I was also wondering about what size tip they were using on that deck gun. Or did they have other lines off?

        Not sure if they still do, but Grand Traverse FD used to have a hose wagon that had a massive reel for LDH. I believe they had 5″ as well, although I don’t remember how much, I want to say 5,000′, but I could be off. Looked on their website and couldn’t find any info.

      • OldCityCaptain

        Well commenter….the tone of your answer sounds a little defensive. I know plenty about relay pumping, and about LDH. Here is a copy of your response concerning your engine pressure…” Engine pressure should be around 20 * 6 + some, probably around 150 psi.” the phrase “should be around” says it all. Know your hydraulics and you will know how to move and supply adequate water. Should be….and around, and probably…don’t cut it. The math doesn’t lie. So, you speak as though you were there. If so, then, prove me wrong. Print the data, give us some video of the pump pressures you had while conducting this test, because I don’t believe the results you say you achieved, and the standard calculations of the information given plugged into standard friction loss calculators are improbable. Please refer to my earlier post for the calculated pump discharge pressures.
        Tell the citizens of your fine county to lobby the local government to provide an adequate water/hydrant system. You can pay for it with all the insurance money you save by reducing your ISO rating.
        By the way 31 years as a firefighter, with the last 26 of those as a professional firefighter and not retired yet. Prove the Old man wrong, because like I said….”probably around, and should be around……just don’t cut it.”

  • CHAOS

    The above (lengthy) “anonymous” post was mine (some dummy forgot to log in). The LDH is an investment, and a very capable investment at that. We’ve always laid ours a bit faster than the old days of 3″, attempting to “float” the couplings down instead of dropping them just off the tailboard. The 35 mph might be a bit extreme, but they’re in the neighborhood. In those damaged situations of accidental lays, how much of it is due to being run over by very surprised civilians? Granted, dropping 1500′ of 5′ at 60 mph is not the best thing for the stuff. I’ve lived, and suffered, through a number of tanker shuttles, and I’ve yet to see one that can provide a steady 1,000+ gpm in less time than a LDH relay by chauffers who know what they’re doing. At 6,000′ or less, I’d go relay every time.

  • pipeline promoters

    I believe early 80’s wellsboro fd pa laid approx 5k ft ldh [out of the box] with engine at each end to save the main st in a fire [fire engineering mag]. have done many of these long distance lays with far better results, faster ,less manpower and safer than tanker shuttles. old dogs do need to learn 30 year old tricks.

  • Tree

    Short term incident – go for the tankers.

    Long term incident – lay the line.

    I can’t say as I’ve ever seen an analysis of fire flow through an incident, but usually you need lots at the beginning and not so much as time goes on. With a tanker shuttle, that means the tankers can’t keep up at first, and later are sitting in line, waiting to dump.

  • Anonymous

    …what about the cutie @6:21???

  • Craig

    Funny people talk about investment for equipment. But one thing we need to think about. You have a large buidling with several hydrants around it. Most times your working offf the same main and usually end up no to little water flow.
    Instead of laying in and tapping from the nearest hydrants on the same loop lay a longer line to a different main. When its time to pick up call in the cover up companies.

  • Big Mose

    Great show!!! The value of LDH is proven again.

    And, if you can’t do it, or won’t do it, don’t knock those that can and do.

  • KeepOnTruckin’

    I saw a few different methods of calculating pump pressures above. I don’t want to drag it on, but the one calculation had GPMsquared. So I wanted to throw my 2 out there…

    For 5″ hose, FL= (Q*Q)/15 where Q = GPM/100. That gives you FL for 100feet. So…

    950gpm/100= 9.5
    9.5*9.5=90.25
    90.25/15= 6.016
    6.016*60(sections)= 361PSI of friction loss(does not account for appliance losses or +/- elevation.

    For the record, flow dictates the psi lost in hose. There is no “standard rule” for each size. The statement “5inch hose is 6psi” or “1 3/4 is 20 per section” is false as a general rule of thumb.

  • tohso31

    I don’t want to sound negative here, since this department obviously wanted to prove something. Here’s my question to anyone involved with the process: what was the supply engine’s discharge pressure?

    Is this hose pressure tested beyond the usual 200 psi? If so, what is it?

  • Anonymous

    Agreed on the 1000 GPM math. However … 750 GPM over 6000′ gets you to 202.5 PSI (If the friction loss is 0.06/100/100) + 20 PSI intake and +10 PSI Appliance which = 230.5 PSI at the discharge. There is 300 PSI 5″ Hose (max operating pressure of 270 PSI) with the above friction loss )Conquest Hose). A 1500 GPM engine puts out 750 GPM (50% of rated capacity) @ 250 PSI. What about this process is not possible with off the shelf hose, pumps and appliances? 750 GPM qualifies as a master stream. 815 GPM gets you to 239.121 PSI + 30 PSI = 269.121 PSI so 815 GPM over 6000′ is the most I am aware of that can be done this way and would require a pump greater than 1500 GPM. I was not there, I’m in Colorado. I’m a Medic/Engineer, not a hose rep.