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Early video: Initial attack at Sheboygan, Wisconsin house fire.

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Video from sheboygan night scanner of a fire late Monday afternoon at 1131 Oakland Avenue in Sheboygan, Wisconsin that killed two dogs.

SheboyganDaily.com:

When firefighters arrived, they reported heavy black smoke coming out the front door. Firefighters learned there were still two pet dogs left in the home. A quick and coordinated fire attack brought the fire under control shortly after 5 PM.

A search was mounted for the two dogs after conditions made entry possible. Firefighters quickly located the family pets and removed them from the home. A valiant effort was made to attempt to resuscitate the dogs, but ultimately they succumb to the effects of the exposure to the smoke and heat of the fire.

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Comments - Add Yours

  • slackjawedyokel

    get that nozzle out of your armpit

    • Fire21

      What’s the problem? Didn’t the fire go out quickly (once they got water/foam)? Didn’t they go in once it was safe enough? Looked to me like they handled things just fine.

      • Commenter

        Yokel and many others believe water loses extinguishing ability if it’s held close to the firefighter’s center of mass. It has to be held at arm’s length and whipped around like a wild man to be fully effective. But only on straight stream. If you created a nice cone of fire with a fog nozzle instead of whipping it around in a cone by hand, you cut it’s effectiveness in half, according to them. Furthermore, apparently pistol grips decrease water effectiveness by 33.2%

        Or, more likely, a bunch of guys who have trouble interpreting written information are dogmatic about the tactics that were taught to them and have worked most of the time at the 50 fires they’ve been to.

  • A Seasoned Engineer

    In my lifetime,,,,,, I will never understand why it takes so long to charge a handline.

    • Fire21

      Maybe the MPO was waiting for them to get their masks and gloves and helmets on and be really ready for water……

      • Rescue5Squad

        If any PO didnt charge a line because they didnt like the way I put on my gloves or mask, they would find a permanent spot on the ambo.

  • play4keeps

    That was awful

  • DeeTee

    WOW! They’re lucky they did’nt push it thru the house

  • Hammer

    Doesn’t “going in” mean getting past the threshold of the door????

  • InsideOut

    Long time lurker, first time poster- so don’t burn me at the stake.

    What is the thoughts on going interior through the back of the house and pushing that out the windows? I realize we cannot see the back of the house from our vantage point.

    • Curly from CT

      Takes too long (time utilized to get water on the fire) Also, no idea what might be in your way if you start from the rear & move toward the front. The “books” say unburned to burned but in the real world you need to get water on fire as quickly & safely as possible. No problem with a smooth bore on 1 3/4″ 15/16″ tip aimed toward the ceiling moving in. Never seen a solid stream “push” fire.

  • Scooter

    Fire21 … Come on man really…. looks like they are within site of the pump operator. Charge the line when you see them lay it down…for some reason if the bail is open on the pipe the pump operator can shut it down. Fire really prgressed from the picture with fire out one or two windows… to the entire porch off Strike Da Box! K

    • Fire21

      I should have added “LOL”, cuz I was trying to be humorous. We’ve commented a lot here about arriving ready to fight fire…those guys weren’t, so the delay in getting a line charged really didn’t affect a lot. At least that’s the way I saw it.

  • capthoco

    first clip is :42 seconds. That got water flowing in the beginning of the second clip. So really there is no way to tell how long it really took other than :42 seconds to charge the line. Who knows what the PO was doing or maybe even problems he was over coming. I don’t think based on this short clip you can determine a long line charge time.

    CAFS knocked the fire quick.

    Come on man the pushing fire crap has been debunked over and over again. Looking at the fire before water application there is very little smoke coming from the eaves or windows of the house. You can actually see in the windows on the Delta side. My guess this fire was contained to the porch and the front door was closed. Maybe they got lucky or maybe they did a good 360 and determined that. Either way opening the door to the house would have allowed the fire into the house.

    Nice Job. Single line fire.

  • Anonymous

    For all the “fire-pushers” out there… how many fires have you been to where you saw fire that wasn’t already in another portion of the house progress there as a result of applying water to it? Thats what I thought… No, they weren’t lucky, THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN. Sure, going around the back and going through the entire house and “pushing it” out the front sounds like a great idea. What are you really gaining by taking the time to get your line all the way around the back, dealing with a minimum of 2 extra pinch points to hump hose around (with only 2 guys mind you) and then advancing the charged line all the way through the house just to get to the enclosed porch which is the only thing on fire? Absolutely nothing… if anything that would have had more of a negative impact than anything positive it would have done (other than qualify to you that they were real hardcore firemen which I am sure all of you are more than qualified to judge). Give me a break… they put the fire out… end of story.

    • Rescue5Squad

      Yes, and NO…. I have absolutely scene people PUSH FIRE. BUT, thats because lack of experience allowed them to attack the fire with a FOG pattern. In my 15 years, i have never PUSHED a fire with a smooth bore! Or a straight stream. So that I agree with. But you ABSOLUTELY can push fire with a fog pattern. Go back in and look at the trailer fire in AACO, last month. As soon as they fog the window, the D-side starts pushing nasty turbulent smoke. THINK ABOUT IT FOLKS. Why do you hydraulically vent with a fog???? Because it moves a TON of air. If your applying the air into the structure, instead of out a window, that air has to go somewhere! If you have a good fire that has a hold of the walls, and ceilings, YOU WILL PUSH FIRE. Pour tactics, and lack of experience(meaning you actually went to fires) burn down alot of buildings!!! These guys did fine, and fire went out.

      • cappy

        Amen rescue. Choose the right tactic based on scene conditions and attack with safe and intelligent ops.
        I may need a spoon or a fork or maybe even a knife to eat lunch this afternoon…. But I will choose which tool and when to use it based on a variety of factors.

    • 8truck

      No you can’t push fire. But you can push super heated air back onto a victim. You can also induct engouh air to light off the smoke. You want proof I have it.

      • Commenter

        I want proof.

        I can post a link to the UL studies that show no temperature spikes in the adjacent rooms, when fire is attacked with a fog pattern. I can post numerous studies, and introduce you to just about any European firefighter, who can verify that a fog patter can actually be used to cool the superheated smoke. Learn your craft. Learn what 3D gas-phase cooling is.

        • dave statter

          I have read some of the UL study and I wouldn’t dare dispute a word of it. Those are some good folks and smart people. I have also been following the arguments on here for a while.

          But here is the the part I really don’t understand (and believe me, I don’t understand a lot). If you put a fog pattern through a window going from inside to out, it vents the room. Hydraulic ventilation still works, correct?

          If I recall the UL study talks about the issues with adding air by the simple act of opening the front door. So, if you are putting a fog pattern into a window from the outside, why wouldn’t that also be pushing air into the structure and venting it the same way opening the front door does or maybe even more?

          This is not meant as a slam on either side of this argument. Just trying to understand the issues.

          Statter

          • Commenter

            I imagine you could fan flames with a fog pattern if you did it remote from the fire. If you look at the temperature curves during the fog stream application of Experiments 13, 14, & 15 described in the UL ventilation paper, you see that it cools faster than during the straight stream application during other experiments. This is due to the increased surface area of the water in contact with hot gases. You’re entraining more air through the window, but you’re also dropping temperatures faster. The net effect is faster extinguishment, as the cooler fuels pyrolyze less.

            When we add oxygen by opening windows, we still see that it takes a couple minutes to go from incipient fire to flashover, even with modern (faster flashing) contents. When we introduce air entrained in a fog pattern, we’re also introducing the extinguishing agent – water. In this case, the water wins.

          • Fire21

            The designed purpose of a fog nozzle is to break the stream into particles of water so as to absorb more BTUs more quickly. A smooth bore nozzle will bore more deeply into a fire before breaking up, thus reaching closer to the seat of a deep-rooted fire. Both streams when whipped around introduce more air than a steady-held stream, and create more steam since heat is being absorbed by the particles. Air entrainment and steam production create atmospheric pressure which will force the products of combustion away from the site of the fire.

            Any stream of fluid will entrain air into it. Even solid streams, as they reach farther and farther, break up and entrain air into the moving particle stream. Fog nozzles entrain more air, as they are particles from the time they leave the nozzle. The narrower the fog pattern, the less air is entrained (less space between particles). Using a fog to ventilate a room is accomplished by using as wide a pattern as possible to entrain the most air possible (more space between particles) within the confines of the window or door frame.

            Yes, introducing a fog pattern into a window from the outside will move just as much air as setting the stream from the inside out. The trick with shooting from the outside in is learning how wide or narrow a pattern to use to accomplish fire extinguishment and heat absorption without needlessly pushing the fire products throughout the building. By far the better tactic is working from the inside out.

            But a transitional attack dictates starting from the outside, then moving in when it is possible. Usually a transitional attack means the fire products and/or fire damage are already spread throughout the structure to the point that firefighter safety is too risky to attempt an interior attack right away. At this point it is really insignificant which fire stream is used, since structure damage is usually extreme already.

            My thoughts based on my training and my experience.

        • Rescue5Squad

          All knowledge, no experience. You want 3-D? Actualy go to a JOB, and go in and get it! If you think fighting fires in balloon frames, and older buildings with a FOG is smart, you have obviously got your experience in Europe, or Fire whacker magazine.

          • Commenter

            For what it’s worth, I have plenty of experience fighting fires in all sorts of fires in the mid-atlantic, fog, ss, sb, more than 20 years in some of the busiest jurisdictions around. You don’t think they have old buildings in Europe?

  • FMCH

    I see the guy with the nozzle in the first video is trying to mimick some of the other fire videos, by not securing his SCBA waist belt.

  • Anonymous

    Sheboygan has 5 stations, 2trucks, 2engines, 3paramedic rigs and a rescue pumper staffed on each shift. One truck/med unit is cross staffed and almost every rig in the city only runs with 2 personel, sometimes 3. With what was on scene the fire went out rather quickly.

  • David S.

    Good point dave, anonymous you go with what you have they did ok as far as I can see.

  • Rescue5Squad

    1. Pistol grips breed bad habits! The firefighter lets the nozzle get to far under him to maintain control. The reason we teach the line out in front of you by a good foot or more, is so you can manueaver the line in any direction at anytime. Up, down, left, right, and behind you in the event you need to fight your way out.

    3. The reason you play the line in a large circle, or whipping it around is because cover a greater area, thus knocking down a fully developed fire in less time.

    “COMMENTOR” If you had any kind of experience on the street, you would know this is basic firefighting. Nothing about Europe is comparable, by the way. You can post all the links to UL studies all you want. I have been there, and have pretty much every one on CD. While it is valuable info, its not anything alot already didnt know, or expect. But alot of details are missing. The “adjacent rooms” you speak of, were just that. No extenion into any walls or cielings.

    • Commenter

      1. Because there’s more control with the pistol grip in close, as you admit, the same firefighter can flow more water. If you need to aim up down, left right, you move your body that way. It can be done. Practice it.

      2. Why am I not surprised that you cannot count?

      3. Cover a greater area with a fog pattern.

      I’m not debating my experience. My experience has been that the fires tend to go out regardless of nozzle or pistol grip, but occasionally men get burned because they’re in too far, too fast, without knowing that they are above the fire, or that the fire is particularly advanced. They get in too far, too fast, because they’re too busy trying to man up and push in to perform a good size up. Using a transitional attack off the bat gets water on the fire faster while giving the OIC a chance to size up. It makes entry less dangerous for that 1% of time it matters. Understanding 3D attack gives the nozzle team one more defense against flashover.

  • cappy

    Products of combustion… all of them…. will be effected by the introduction of any fire stream in a built environment/fire compartment… introduced from the inside or outside.

    The question becomes under what conditions do the type,number,volume of water and entrained air, and configuration of the application of those streams effect the fire environment while attempting to apply enough btu absorbing agent to the fire to control it’s growth.

  • slackjawedyokel

    commenter – never said ‘pitting” the nozzle makes water any less effective. Just the DELIVERY of the water less effective. A 16 oz hammer still weighs the same no matter how I hold it, but in my less educated opinion, it SEEMS to do a better job of delivering force when I dont choke up on it.

  • Molly

    How I hold the nozzle depends on what i’m doing at the time. If i’m outside or in a large open structure, then I let go of the pistol grip, push it forward until the bail is at the end of my reach and let small arm motions make larger motions at the tip. Less work equals easier firefighting.
    If I’m inside a typical residential structure I like the nozzle close to me because I get much better control and maneuverability in tight rooms and hallways and I can maintain a more natural grip on the nozzle through the pistol grip.
    Anyway, I thought these videos were good. There’s nowhere near enough info available to claim there was a delay in getting water and there’s no point in discussing that in this context.

  • OldSutterOne

    An open door is the fires best friend! I concur that staight of solid streams usually will not push a fire, but in the old days with the indirect application and combination methods we sure did. It was difficult to get guys not to go to windows after see that old film, I think it was called “Nozzleman” by the Iowa Fire School. I think Kieth Royer was a big proponet. Someone feel free to chime in.

  • 52thekid

    Couple of things:
    Everyone should read the articles “Little Drops of Water” parts one and two by the late Andrew Fredericks. These articles were published in Fire Engineering magazine in 1999 and 2000 and get to the heart of the science and the tactics of putting water on fire.
    http://www.firedistrict7.com/tpdffiles/nozleproject/FFebruary2000LITTLE.PDF
    http://downloads.pennnet.com/fe/misc/fredericks_littledrops2.pdf
    And here are two more articles in FE about selecting flow rates and nozzles:
    http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-163/issue-10/features/a-quantitative-approach-to-selecting-nozzle-flow-rate-and-stream-part-1.html
    http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-164/issue-1/features/a-quantitative-approach-to-selecting-nozzle-flow-rate-and-stream-part-2.html

    I prefer a smooth bore for interior attack and “surround and drown” scenarios for very simple reasons, based on my observations(experience)and research: You get more water (GPM) with less work (less nozzle reaction)and more water gets delivered to the seat of the fire. You want the steam conversion at the fuel/flame interface. That’s where it’s most effective. That’s where the source of our problem is. That’s where the fire is living and breathing…..take care of that part and everything else will get better. I love fog nozzles for car fires, brush fires, confined and compartmentalized fires where human occupancy isn’t a concern, overhaul, etc.
    Will adjustable fog nozzles work for an interior or exterior attack? Yup. Will fog streams work for extinguishing fires? They will.
    Does water absorb more heat in its gas state than liquid state? Absolutely.
    It comes down to varying degrees of effectiveness. Get the water and the steam conversion to happen at the fuel flame interface.
    More water, less work, less upset of the thermal balance in the fire compartment and less likely to envelop your crew and victims with steam. You can get 185 GPM with a 15/16 smooth bore on an 1 3/4″ that has less reaction force than the same size hose with a fog nozzle that’s flowing only 150 GPM.

    As far as the debate about pistol grips….The pistol grip is kept closer to the body. This is natural tendency and seems to happen to everyone. The problem is you spend more energy and have less maneuverability in this position than if the nozzle is out in front of you. Its physics and body mechanics. Will it work close to the body? Yup. I’ve done it. Then someone showed me how to hold the nozzle out in front, how to keep it there, good foot work and team work with the back up position and holy crap!!….we did more work, spent less energy and way more effective with our stream application. Check out these links and see for yourself:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLdACum_SJY&feature=share&list=UUcGvWDMbZSLn_zEZXhCoujw

    Without knowing anything about the situation in the video or the department depicted, looks like they did just fine. Fire got knocked down quickly. Hopefully someone went to the rear to search, make sure someone wasn’t lying just inside the back door, in a rear room, hangin out a window, etc.